I was working in a call center, but quit because I could not lie day after day to the customers who were calling. I have been reading the postings here, and I just have to ask, why the secrecy? If you guys are not doing anything wrong legally, and more important morally, why do you NOT tell your customers, "we are in India," or "we are in Mexico?" Please do not tell me it is for security reasons. What security reasons? Saying "we are in India," is not like saying "we are at 100 Main Street, Paris Texas" You don't tell them where you are located because they would switch telephone service providers in a hearbeat if they knew the truth. If this is wrong, please tell me. I would love to know where I could find a study on the web that says otherwise.

Your customers have a right to know who is handling their private information, and they have a right to know that this information is safe. I know for a fact that some operators write down credit card numbers and then use them to purchase products, especially in Mexico. They are careful to never charge more than $50 per card to keep from alerting the credit card companies. You guys act as though you have not part in this crime - buy you do, especially if you allow your operators to having writing instruments at their workstations, as opposed to having them record everything on their computers where it can be monitored. Cameras can only catch so much!

Hi Daniel,

Interesting topic. Before we get carried away, see this topic as well. I think you may have intended to have replied to that thread, but I can't be sure. Anyway, you raise some fair points, but I'm a bit unsure about the 'know(ing) for a fact' business. Can you back this up with some evidence? As it stands, your words could be perceived as having some hidden agenda.

John

I did not confuse the topics. As to "knowing for a fact," I can testify to only that which my eyes have seen, and my hears have heard from those who brag about committing the deeds, and told me how to do the same. When reported, I was told to keep my mouth shut - so I quit rather than to be an involved.

Daniel,

If what you say is true, then I think you should feel free to spill the beans here. After all, we're here to expose dubious practice for what it is...

John

Mr. Clark,

For what it is worth, Mr. Smith made postings earlier to this very site, complaining of the dilemma that he felt his (then current) work environment put him in. If his statements accurately reflect what he observed, the *evidence* he has comes from his own personal observations. Granted, all that my statement here establishes is that Mr. Smith is (at the very least) consistent in his claims.

Personally, I doubt that Mr. Smith is lying. What would there be in it, for him? What kind of 'hidden agenda' could he have? If he has an issue with the call center industry, as opposed to his former employers and co-workers, he will not find a sympathetic audience *here*, of all forums. If he wants to stain the reputation of the call center industry in Mexico, or of his former employers, he should be writing to U.S. Attorney's General and Congressmen, and not CC Voice.

To Daniel Smith-- *some* of the points you are making are quite valid, but I cannot agree with all of them. To wit:

1. Your point about exact addresses and security is well taken.

You should keep in mind, however, that sometimes call centers may employ people who have, shall we say, intellectual lapses. If you tell employees-- "you can reveal the country and city in which we do business, but not the address" you have given them something extra to remember and handle. "Don't tell any customer where we are, period" is easier to remember. Telling them it is to protect *them* gives them a reason to remember it. This may just be erring on the side of caution. I should think that accents give away the rep's country-of-origin fairly fast anyhow-- few operations can afford to spend a small fortune on accent coaching.

2. Do you really think "they would switch telephone service providers in a heartbeat if they knew the truth"? I think you have to be exaggerating *somewhat*, Mr. Smith.

Yes, some people may choose service providers for nationalistic reasons. Yet if the same or better service comes at a lower cost to the buyer personally, nationalism fades fairly fast. If you do not believe me, please check the country-of-origin labels inside your shirts.

3. Your customers have a right to know who is handling their private information, and they have a right to know that this information is safe. You state that "Your customers have a right to know who is handling their private information, and they have a right to know that this information is safe."

If by this you mean customers have a **legal** right to this, you are simply wrong. If you mean a *moral* right to this, I'm not prepared to comment on that, beyond saying that there are obviously millions of people that disagree with you-- whether or not you are right.

The legal rights that people have are defined in their national constitutions, legislated codes, federal and state/provincial/ prefectural/municipal statutes, judicial decisions, and in some jurisdictions, the writings of eminent jurists.

The legal rights that people have do vary from place to place, but I am not aware of any U.S. jurisdiction (for example) that entitles people to know the identity and location of the people handling their private information-- whether this is for their telephone service provider or otherwise. If this surprises you, look up "skip tracing" software on-line. Find out just how much anyone willing to spend a few dollars can find out about you (or anyone). All of this is information about you that, at some point, was **sold** into the public domain. Not only are you not entitled to know who handles it, the people that handle it, do not even have to keep track. They can sell it-- and they do, all the time. All of this is perfectly legal. If you don't think it should be, I agree with you. But the U.S. Congress does not.

Nor am I aware of any U.S. jurisdiction that entitles people to know the security procedures that are (or are not) put in place to safeguard their credit or personal information. I think you can figure out why-- the safeguards for mine are the safeguards for yours. If I know how the safeguards for mine work, I can figure out a way around the safeguards for yours. People do not have a right to know that their information is safe, partly because this kind of *right* would be self-defeating.

4. If what you described in your earlier post is accurate, as I replied earlier, your former employers are complicit in these credit card frauds. I suggest you report them.

5. On your comment "especially if you allow your operators to having writing instruments at their workstations, as opposed to having them record everything on their computers where it can be monitored." I, for one, do not think that simply allowing operator to have pens, etc., makes the managers complicit in credit card fraud by the operators.

First, think, for a moment, of how difficult it would be, realistically, to keep pens, etc. *out* of workstations. They cannot keep inmates in U.S. Federal penitentiaries from making weapons, dealing drugs and brewing alcohol. These inmates have no privacy rights at all, and are scutinized constantly. They have cameras everywhere. If you can cheat on an exam, another rep can sneak in a pen on the sly. Second: who needs pens? I am sure that you can remember a string of 12 numbers. If you can do that, long enough to go to the bathroom, you can steal credit information.

Please keep in mind that not every call center in the industry, in Mexico and elsewhere, is staffed by criminals. Ethics in the call center industry vary just as they do in politics, banking, the stock market and used car sales. Individuals should be judged by their own track records, and not their associations-- that's my two cents.

WP

I only want to call your attention to this problem, so that those of you who manage international call centers can be aware of the problems that exist when you put an unlimited supply of credit card information in front of people who have sheets hanging where the front doors to their houses ought to be.

I live in Monterrey Mexico. You cannot imagine the poverty and despiration in these international locations until you actually lived in one of them. I worked in a call center here for a short time. I know what is going on.

On a personal note, three times Wells Fargo Bank has deactivated my personal debit and credit cards due to activity in the Monterrey metroplex. I had to go to a Texas branch in person each time, with two forms of picture ID, in order to have my cards reactivated. Their reason - Monterrey Mexico is one of the hotbeds of credit card fraud internationally. Could this have been an item on the table during the International Conference on Corruption, held n Monterrey Mexico during 1999? Pres. Bush attended, as did Fidel Castro (that was a fun day). Yes, this is a problem, and Sprint, AT&T, NetWorkPTS, Cox Communications domestic and payphone networks, American Online, other Internet Service Providers, several telemarketing firms, and countless pre-paid calling card companies will one day have to wake up and smell the coffee.

While traveling in the states, I stopped at a payphone and placed an international call using a phone for which I had placed calls as an operator. I charged the call to my credit card and my statement showed the charge to have originated in the US. What is interesting is that a friend of mine in the call center in Mexico handled the call for me personally. This information, coupled with the constant lieing and deceit does not reflect fair trade practices.

I managed a call center from the early 70's until I retired in 1998. We only had around 200 employees, but it was for a fortune 200 company. So, when I see this industry handing off calls internationally and hiding the fact, or at least not being forthcoming with the information, I have to be suspicious.

All I am asking of you, and the 80 congressmen, and 20+ newspapers I have written, is that when you switch a call to a non-US call center, that you electronically announce the fact that this is about to occur, so that the consumer can make an informed decision before their name, address, and phone number is disclosed to non-US, possibly even terrorist, individuals. And before the barely-english-speaking operator fails to adequately respond to a child's call for help because they simply dialed "0."

A couple of you claim that U.S. consumers do not care. Put your money where your mouth is, and simply start announcing, "your call will be handled by a non-U.S. citizen, in an undisclosed non-U.S. call center," and then report your findings here. I think you will have to eat your words, as Americans are becoming very sensitive to their vulnerability to identity theft, credit card fraud, and exposure to terrorists. Imagine the effect if you also added, "your phone company cannot be held responsible if the person you are speaking to happens to actually be a member of a terrorist organization!"

Daniel, sorry but it seems like you are a firm opposer of offshore outsourcing and trying to put the things other way around. But let me tell you that most of the call centers around the world are really professional and work with full sincerity though in your latest post you have mentioned only about the condition of Mexico. I agree to that and am surprised that the employers are not employing the right work force, why would an international call center will opt for a person who don’t have a good track record, unless the employers themselves are criminals. I agree that Americans are becoming very sensitive to their vulnerability to identity theft, credit card fraud, and exposure to terrorists, but excuse me these all things are possible from the US end also. So the key factor over here is the selection of agents by the Call Center (irrespective of its location) and the selection of Call center by the client. I am definitely sure that then this problem will minimize to the least. And now about lying to the customers about locations, well customer will know the same as soon as they encounter the voice of an agent because of the dialect. And so unless and until they will ask about the same there is no need to disclose the address or country (as already nailed by Mr. Wiggle Puss). And the names by which agents identify themselves is just for the sake of good customer interaction as they can easily remember the name which originate from their land instead of wasting time in getting the pronunciation right! Afterall we are working for customer satisfaction.
So I think that it’s the responsibility of the Call Center Management to avoid its agents from being getting involved in credit card frauds, if they have a selection procedure that is well groomed! And if these acts are taking place in the surroundings then it’s a duty of a employee to get it to the notice of management as because there job will remain till the time company will sustain, that is only possible if they have a clean record in the market!

Tarun

Well I do have to say something regarding this session.

As far as not disclosing Information of there location I feel is perfectly fine. But Obviously when asked specifically where they are calling from then agreed it should be disclosed.

And for activity like CC theft etc, ALOT of Broiler rooms and such have been running right in the US for years and Honestly I would rather deal with an Individual having trouble with there accent then a smooth talker that will rip you off and put you in the poor house...I am not stating there is no illegal activity going on over sees but I feel we are looking at a lower chance of it occurring there. I have worked in and ran call room for a long time and one thing I will say about offshore rooms is that they have excellent work ethic you do not hear of reps taking the day off for a headache or something minor like they are skipping class. They work 6 - 7 days a week 12 hrs a day for $250 a month and most can not risk losing that.

The offshore facilities do alot for Companies in the US/Canada etc by bottom line - having lower cost production and as far as tech work and software you can not get the Brainpower that is offered places like India, And if you could check the cost comparison NO reasonable business can dispute that fact.

I've read the replies to both postings of Mr. "Smith"'s comment
and from personal experience I believe that companies representing
themselves as U.S. operations do so not as an act of underhandedness,
but to streamline the opening end of the call.

I don't want to make generalizing statements here about the American populous but something that I notice (and enjoy) about Americans is that they are a nation of flag wavers and the mob is most comfortable dealing with there own. Many industries such as textiles and automotive are totally comfortable with overseas business because their primary concerns are dollars and cents.
John Q. American would still rather deal with Ahmed from Georgia rather than Ahmed from India.

I suppose that giving real locations might forward the cause of the global mindset, but I don't think that any business gets into the telephone ales industry to be a cultural innovator.

Something that I found was appropriate in a call center that I operated previously was rather than having agents say," My name is Srinivas from Brooklyn." the opening line in my script was, " Hello, my name is Srinivas calling on behalf of company XYZ in Brooklyn and I'm calling today to.....".
If the customer really wanted to know they could ask, but otherwise Srinivas was free to go about his pitch unhindered by geography.

Good luck to all of you in future endeavours, and I hope Mr. "Smith" can find a position in an organization that is compatible with his very strong beliefs on customer awareness of location.

Mike McLenehan
Sales Manager
Voicetronic International